A lot of snatch information seems to be written with the idea of competing in GS or passing a snatch test with the 24kg KB. None of my clients have those as goals and considering that the snatch is more technical, I've held off on teaching it. But lately I've been thinking of how I could use the snatch in a fitness framework instead of a competition framework.

What I stumbled on was the idea of doing :15/:15 alternating hands every :30. (Note: is this the Viking Warrior snatch protocol? Not sure where I got the idea.) What I noticed is that my hands never tear doing this protocol even past the 15:00 mark (as far as I took it). The stress on the hands seems much less than other snatch protocols and I'm thinking of using this to teach it for fitness.

Has anyone else taught the snatch for fitness? Any ideas? Or do people agree with Steve Maxwell that it isn't needed for fitness clients?

It's very similar to the first protocol in "Viking Warrior Conditioning". The first protocol in VWC is :15/:15 for up to 80 sets of snatches (40 minutes total, with 20 minutes of work and 20 minutes of rest). Their is a cadence test to determine how many reps you are supposed to do in each 15 second interval to be working at your personal VO2max level. And of course, you're supposed to use hardstyle breathing and technique.

Interval training with snatches seems like a good idea to me. Since mostly likely you're training GS style, you may want to start them at :15/:15 and work them up to something like :30/:15 as their fitness level and technique improves. Alternating snatches and sledgehammer strikes in an interval fashion is also an excellent choice for a killer workout.

Thanks for confirming that. There's no way I'd ever do 80 sets of snatches -- way too boring. But doing them for 10-15:00 seemed a good use of time. And the intervals give my hands time to recover.

Most of my clients haven't been using kettlebells for very long. I'm thinking of having them wait about six months before teaching the snatch. I want them to be very solid on swings, cleans, squats, presses, etc. first.

BTW, this is what Steve Maxwell had to say about teaching the snatch for fitness:
I have long been a proponent as the KB Swing as the primary movement, and for the very reasons you describe. I am not at all enamored with the Snatch. In my experience, all the benefits of KBs can be had with the Swing and for most people it's totally unnecessary to do the Snatch at all. In my corporate/mainstream fitness classes, I've always avoided the Snatch unless it was a group of extra-athletic folks.

I don't see any reason to subject the body to the the additional stress of Snatches.
maxwellsc.blogspot.com/2009/04/refining-upon-burpee.html

That's what I've believed up to this point but I'm questioning this now and wondering if I taught it, how I'd go about doing it.

I haven't seen much at all about the snatch for fitness so any opinions would be greatly appreciated.

When I first got started the snatch was one of the intimidating lifts. There are a lot of confidence issues and after a while I managed to do them (still a work in progress) where I am trying to learn how to get it better without tearing up the hands. I managed to work it to 25-27 reps per minute with the #16 but it almost always resulted in hand tears.

So I stayed off snatching the KB for almost all year and worked on the other lifts, the past few months on the Long Cycle.

I don't notice any deterioration of my fitness or strength but my hand is a lot happier without torn callouses.

It's a great lift and impressive display of control and explosiveness. It's definitely one of the eye candy lifts for me but I can live with or without it.

I do teach it from the high pull and press progression though. Once the lifter has enough confidence to get the KB overhead and hold it there for time, that's my cue to demonstrate it and get them to learn it, mostly for the hip drive which, arguably, can be replicated with the swing, jerk, etc.

Thanks for your candid views on the snatch, Vince. As a teacher, I was getting tired of hand tears too. It's really hard to teach classes with your hands all turn up. I know that technique is always blamed when hand tears come up but IMO most of the problem is the extreme context associated with the snatch.

I could be wrong but at least in my case, I was trying to do way too much volume too quickly. But I think a lot of guys out there think they need to be working on high reps with the 24kg before they are ready, me included.

I take the idea of teaching KB as a martial art seriously and I want the snatch to be in the mix as a mid-level or higher technique for students to advance to when they're ready. But it has to be in a format that isn't going to rip up people's hands. That's just not going to work.

Maybe training the snatch with the intervals is the answer?

Not meaning to hijack the thread, but I think that this relates to hand care in general with long cycle type exercises.
I am sure that in itself is worthy of a seperate topic thread, but it is indeed the limitation for many people doing this complex lift. Hands get beat up.
Working with a lighter weight until overall confidence and technique are nailed seems to be the best suggestion, then add on the volume steadily but gradually for sure.

For me, its the most asked about exercise
(And a personal challenge to execute well!)

Cheers,

Yeah, hand care in general probably needs it's own thread. I personally don't have any issues so far with anything other than snatch. And since starting the :15/:15 intervals, snatches don't tear my hands up much either.

Agreed volume needs to be built slowly. But how to build that volume is the question for me. Everything I tried seem to hurt the hands. The intervals give me a great workout and are easy on the hands. 15 seconds of work and 45 seconds of rest on each hand is great.

Some people have said that the high pull is enough to elicit the same effect as the snatch for fitness clients. Here's an example:


I don't teach clients to bring it that high BTW. I like the high pull because it teaches control of the kettlebell and, opposite of the presenter in the clip above, it works the upper body very well with push/pull. So I can see using it as a stepping stone to the snatch. But does it provide the same results that doing the snatch would for fitness clients?

The snatch is an odd one alright, I fully agree that in the general population the swing is more than enough. The snatch with the extra techique, extra stress on the elbow/shoulder and longer drop takes time to develop.

Back when I began kettlebelling I used Enter the Kettlebell as my guide into the methds and routines. Their "Rite of Passage" is based on 3 training days per week, 2 of which involve swings, one invovles snatch.
For somebody not invovled in GS, it works a treat, it certainly worked for me when I was following it.

Then there's the argument that why do we need to do extended sets of one lift?
When I do use the snatch in my classes it's usually as part of a circuit or complex, so the reps are relativly low and the gaps between snatch sets are relativly long.
I only use extended snatch sessions as a test or if we are specifically looking to bring up that lift.

Then there's the high pull.
I don't like it at all, my training partner loves it. I view it as a stepping stone to the snatch and nothing more. He thinks it does great things for his injured shoulder...make up your own mind but he uses it, I don't.
I do however like the double KB high pull, but again we're talking about more advanced trainee's.

I'm starting to waffle so lets wrap up:
Beginners - occasionally snatch, treat as practice, swings do the rest
Inters - Add snatch sets to circuits/complexes
Adv - well, they're advanced, let em make up their own mind..
GS - well thats obvious (I think)

Dave

I routinely use timed snatch sets in my clients training, but I have them switch arms every minute. Pacing ranges from 16-24 rpm, when they begin to perform reps in the 22-24 rpm range regularly, I will then advance them up one bell (4kg jump). These sets range from 4 to 8 minutes, 2-4 sets per half hour session.

Most frequently is a 6 minute set followed by a 15 minute circuit training routine.

So we now have some research to back up the fitness claims on this protocol. ACE conducted some research on the :15/:15 snatch protocol.
www.acefitness.org/getfit/studies/Kettlebells012010.pdf

"During the 20-minute workout, the average calorie burn was
272 calories, not counting additional calorie burn due to the substantial
anaerobic effort.
“We estimated oxygen consumption and how many calories
they were burning aerobically, and it was 13.6 calories per minute.
But we also measured the blood lactate, so anaerobically they were
burning another 6.6 calories per minute,” explains Porcari. “So
they were burning at least 20.2 calories per minute, which is off
the charts. That’s equivalent to running a 6-minute mile pace. The
only other thing I could find that burns that many calories is crosscountry
skiing up hill at a fast pace.”
Researchers credit the brisk calorie burning to the fact that the
kettlebell snatch workout is a total-body movement that is also done
very quickly due to the interval-training format. “We knew it would
be extremely intense,” says Schnettler. “It’s a quick workout, and
you do get a big bang for your buck in a very short amount of time.”"

Good stuff.

Dave,

In my kb fitness classes and with private fitness clients, I teach the snatch early on- my thinking is that it's such a great movement, they should get the benefits of it from the get-go.

I demonstrate it, discuss it- explain the fine points of it, and then have them do it. I will also do it with them, initially, for the visual learners, while watching their technique. My goal is for them to get the "gross" movement down first and while they are "doing" I remind then of the fine points; handle position and arm position overhead, when to pull during the upswing, etc. Of course, if anyone is doing anything incredibly wrong, I stop them, point out what they are doing, and correct it. Basically, I let them "have at it" and correct along the way- making sure no one is doing anything injurious.

It's been very effective and efficient. I've had people of all ages, including 65+, not only doing snatches early on.

Hope this helps,

Rebecca

I'm with Rebecca here,
The GS Snatch is a great movement. Works the posterior kinetic chain like no other. I start people with a Clean which I like to think as a "mini" snatch. Then progression has to be slow weight wise. In another post I think Andrew was mentioning he doesn't let students go up in weight until they can do high reps sets on the current weight. I fully agree with that. In my opinion that's the only caluse ripping/blister forming effective preventive measure. What I do not use much is the swing, almost at all. I found that the Snatch and the clean are far more productive and they are also less intense (volume/time) which prevents tightness etc. Not that they are not beneficial but i feel that they swings are "incomplete" by comparison to the Snatch and the Clean.
Nico

Edit:

Meant to say, I not only have them doing snatches but short timed sets early on.

Dave,

In my opinion there is not much difference between 'fitness' and 'GS' protocols.

Ladders, timed sets, fixed sets, interval training all work well. Whether you are using bells for fitness or competition, the training will be very similar.

For variety sake use exercises other then snatches. But there is nothing wrong with incorporating some GS training protocols into routines designed with fitness in mind.

I guess what I'm saying is that you can use GS protocols and call them 'fitness' protocols if that is your goal.