Hi all,

Just to kick this off....I'm interested in recommendations for exercise sequences or compound exercise kettlebell sets that are useful to promote connected functional strength of the type needed for good internal martial arts ie those in category of tai chi, xing i, ba gua and perhaps tong bei and so on...

Best wishes to all and good luck to the new venture- John

Chinese stone padlock? I remember this movie-"Yellow River Fighter" www.imdb.com/title/tt0096478/ (seen it 3 or 4 times as a kid)- and there was a glimpse of stone padlock form.
But that's It.
Cannot find this movie,nor stone padlock's,anywhere.

IMO all the kettlebell exercises are useful for IMA practices for one of two reasons: a. it does something that will more directly augment martial power or b. it supplements IMA by providing something that IMAs don't do so well.

For example, snatch is great for up and down vertical power as used in xingyiquan a lot. But other MAs too. The upward portion is similar to xingyi snake and if you pull down the snatch using force instead of just letting gravity take it, then it's useful for downward power like pichuan, etc.

Kettlebell swings are great for rehabing people interested in taking IMA but who have perhaps been in white collar jobs that have them sitting too long. The glutes and hamstrings atrophy in those kind of jobs, inhibiting stance work. The KB squat also gets them to open the hip or in IMA terms the kua.

But then IMA practices also aren't known for burning calories and kettlebell training is very good for that. Circuits are particularly good.

To me kettlebells are the ultimate way to build whole body power for martial arts and using them regularly insures you stay trim.

Hey Stranger. You can get stone paddlocks at Atomic Athletic. They are in Bowling Green Ohio and the owner is Roger LaPointe. He's a great guy and very knowlegable about the whole strength game. ( i.e. Olympic Lifting, powerlifting, kettlebells, strongman, martial arts, etc.) E-mail www.atomicathletic.com

Thanks Mike for info,but i'm stranger from another part of the world.Ohio-maybe someday ,who knows..
But it is nice to see this stone paddlock's are still alive.

@ Dave-what do you think about "Ha!"&"Hen!" sounds,is there any use for it in GS practice?
And look at Da-Mo(Bodhidhrma) pictures,there is nothing "fit" about him.
Well,this was diffrent world back there,I think.
And,what about nei-dan(IMA)practice before any wai-dan training (as kettlebells are).

stranger wrote:
Thanks Mike for info,but i'm stranger from another part of the world.Ohio-maybe someday ,who knows..
But it is nice to see this stone paddlock's are still alive.

IMO there's nothing special about the lock training. What I've seen of it is covered in KB training but the reverse isn't there. In other words, KB training has everything lock training has but KB has more. I'd stick with the KB.

Dave-what do you think about "Ha!"&"Hen!" sounds,is there any use for it in GS practice?
That's a good question. Hen and ha are mainly about breathing and absorption/expressing power. As such, they are very similar to the breathing used in KB training. For example, we absorb the KB when swinging and use the breath accordingly and then swing the KB up and use the breath to facilitate the lift. Diphragmatic and anatomical breathing (I think these are the terms most peopel are using) correspond roughly with reverse and normal breathing BTW.

And look at Da-Mo(Bodhidhrma) pictures,there is nothing "fit" about him.
LOL. Well, there's a lot of evidence that he's just a myth. Shahir's Shaolin Monastery is a good book to get for this. Besides, I'd rather look like this:


And,what about nei-dan(IMA)practice before any wai-dan training (as kettlebells are).

I subscribe to the exact opposite view: waidan first. Neidan is way too subtle and complicated to start with. If people can't get training at a gross anatomy/waidan level, then they certainly won't be able to understand anything more subtle. It's like a pyramid -- without a strong base, the tip of the pyramid has nothing to support it. Besides, if you look at the historical IMA guys, they always started with waidan training.

Beyond that, when you really get into the breathing, KB training seems to become more of a mixed waidan/neidan practice. It has a lot of internal characteristics.

Good questions. I love discussing this topic.

@Dave-No..-About neidan/waidan thing; I was thinking about much smaller timeframe.
:Ages ago(And Not True) I was a YMAA student,and somtimes,Long Fist trainings tooked place right before Tai Chi(2in1).
-it's really sucked-shaky Push Hands,sequence with wobbly knees (Shaolin training was really harsh sometimes).But if Tai Chi training was before Long Fist- ..

I'm going to re-teach myself,once most hated exercise:push-up jumps(btw:never seen on internet)-when elbows close to the body,chest starts to move in open/close pattern- a Throatic Extension! Forward,backward and sideways-i've been told-this is a White Crane(Pai Huo) basic exercise.Called here "little panthers".

Pictured Above-oh yes,some Aliens Are Among Us(no offence mr.Cotter)-it's OK for me as long as one can lock the elbow,and can do "rock bottom"sqat.

There's not many gireviks who looks like that,and compete In GS.Probably because they dont drink lots of unhealthy vodka at evening,to be in pure neidan(hangover)state for next day training.

Oh, you were talking about mixing internal and external in the same training session. That depends on how you want each component to function.

If you want to actually work on your IMA material, then by all means do it before KB training. It's very tough to work on something subtle after you've done hard physical training. On the other hand, your taichi and qigong could be used as a cooldown to the KB training. Then it could done afterwards no problem. I might do qigong for this but probably not taichi because I, like most people, still have things I want to work on in the practice.

I understand why YMAA might do shaolin before taichi and I think it's fine for beginners. But higher taichi training requires a calm nervous system and I'd want to switch the order when students get to that point.

Cheers.

Yes,back to topic-yesterday,1rst time i've got right timing in GS"bump",tried before "stomp" from xingyi stepping pattern,but this is slightly diffrent.Thanx to my 25kg'er.
So.. Go Heavy(with care)!-
Dr.Yang said once:"Running is not good for the legs,a bone marrow is like piezoelectric material-to stimulate it,you need some force:low stances,high-mountains trekking or go heavy with gears on your bicycle rides"(mind you -it was 95' or something).

And for Qigong before KB my choice would be Spiral Qigong(or anything with lots of coiling).And for cooldown Tai Chi Body Conditioning,or anything with whole body wave-like movements.
-But for fighters/giryeviks - before any GS or MMA competition- a proper self-hiting practise (even with objects).
Last one is for use only for idividuals who are familiar with the word:
"Fasciae" (A Missing Word of KB World).

take care.

P.S.-Long Fist before TaiChi happens there only because some of senior instructors were pretty "green",and fixed on LongFist only.

Hi all,

I completely agree with Dave on this- very difficult to train well in taiji and possibly ba gua also with nervous system firing and heart rate pumping...the cool down idea of using qi gong is a good suggestion...but after a cooldown period which involves getting heart and respiration back to a more settled state it might work...
I've read somewhere that the Chinese have researced using I chuan postures as recovery and cool down practices for runners finding that it is a very efficient method for getting heart rates to come back to normal

Interestingly, Wang Shu jin was known to walk the circle with something like a 35 lb iron bar in his hand...he reputedly could do it 100 times...no less a figure than Allen Pittman told me he tried it in Taiwan in the 1970's and couldn't do much more than 35-40 without stopping...and Wang was known for massive power and speed...

To go back to my original question: Is anyone offering a specific set or sets that might be more specific to conditioning 'internal' strength pathways, or, are all more or less agreed on Dave's position that KB's in and of themselves when correctly worked are effective tools for internal martial artists to train with...
And it's worth bearing in mind that many IMA specialists as they begin to understand more or their arts end up reverse engineering their shen fa and other excercises and begin to look beyond qi gong type breathing and relaxation work and explore more structural and core engagment elements of the movements- while of course retaining relxation and harmony with breathing patterns etc...

Best wishes to all- John

For pure neidan practice point of view; steel or cast iron are no good-you're going to lose some chi (blood circulation,skin sensitivity) in palms and forearms-in IMA -first wood,and then stone are prefered.
But if you pretty familliar wth this tool,try sensing jin(g)-can you tell,with closed eyes,how heavy it is?And just with light touch?-ok.this is long shot.Im not good in it too.
Im goig to try to sensing jin on my lightest,12 and 17kg K-bells.At first you need to move it to sense weight,then movement from large goes to minimal,and none-only touch.
Try This Ad Home(Gym)-otside its to cold.If you have no choice,try some stances there.
This is like 2 sides of the coin-seen feast of strengh,lots of reps,but any one can drive a nail with it,or needle?
Sometimes i feel this whole KB-thing feels epmty-No masters,grandmasters and moving sequences(due to lack of healthy livers in Mother Russia?).GS is best,for now,in my point of view.
I can make KB seqence,sure,but..(lack of space & fear of future)

peace

Pardon my ignorance GS- but what do you mean by 'GS is best' in your opinion?

Thanks- John

He means Girevoy Sport. It's competition style lifting. Since it's the softer of the two styles, IMA people normally prefer it. Ironically, I often suggest a harder style of KB work to IMA people because it makes up for what they lack many times.

I have resisted the urge to design something specific in training KBs for IMA. The reason is that IMA people might get the idea there's something wrong or not "internal" about regular KB work so it somehow needs to be fixed. There's way too much of that in the IMA community as it is. Getting IMA people to see the utility of normal KB work brings them into the larger KB community and allows a more free flow of info between the groups. This lets some desperately needed fresh air into the stuffy IMA community and spreads useful stuff like joint mobility to the KB community.

Steve has obviously done some IMA specific stuff with the KBs like dragon twists, etc. and I think those are great. But my guess is that he'd agree that those are supplemental lifts that shouldn't replace the primary KB lifts.

The primary lifts build whole body power in spades (crucial for IMA) and help everyone maintain fitness and/or fat loss. I personally wouldn't replace them with IMA-specific drills.

But maybe others will chime in with their opinions.

Thanx Dave for explanation.
Im familiar with kettlebels from:circa-about 6 months,from now,but rigth here a total ketllebel desert.
Its like collecting your's enemy artifacts from the past(USSR) -i'm talking about some senior gym instructors here.Some use it..but for simple rowing only.
To me,sad thing is to see Giveroy Sport and Hard Style to grow,more and more separetly.
It's so hard for now,to think about it as "Kettlebell Art".(No,no juggling.. ART)
Ok-i'm talking again my YMAA past-Long Fist,Whtie Crane and Tai Chi in one place(sometimes in one time).
Maybe there is some future,to keep these 2 styles close,and Not mixed.

Carried away,again,Your's stranger.

P.S.-I will solemny apologise my english here,..but maybe in my last post on this forum(maybe not today,or next year).

More Toughs of mine (sorry folks)
I was thinkig lately about few more points in kettlebells and IMA:
-Other Arm.In two-hands lifting,power is balanced with no big problems-as long as we care about weaker/injured arm.
But one arm lifts-1 arm works,and other..? Sometimes works as counterbalance in swings and cleans,it's works in everyone's dynamics,with ease,too.
One arm push-presses,with many reps on one side-why some people keep empty arm over the head from the begining.They get stressed in competition?-I'm sure some can fake that,and hard breathing too . In my push-presses my empty arm behave quite in Taichi manner-round,with palm open towards the ground,its "pushes"(with center or with edge)the air to support other arm,if tired- then palm mimicks working hand-like in sword seqences-O by forefinger and thumb,or fist with air inside(Taichi Fist).Maybe it's just my years of practise of IMA(pretty unregular btw.)
My thinking is-keepig stiff arm high for long reps is a waste of energy.Yes,you can at point at some older people in TaiCh sequence or in single Push Hands,wth yin-arm at chest or,even head level-well.. they are Masters. To put it simply Yin-hand level,here,shows level of the Chi.
On the spine there's REALLY useful point,for my whole writing above,on the heart level,called Ming Men or Ling Tai-important one for any Fa Jin.There goes Chi to manifest in the arms.Otherwise:headache,neck problems.
your's s.

stranger wrote:But one arm lifts-1 arm works,and other..? [/quote]

The yaw press is interesting in this context. It's like military press but you load the move by twisting the hips back, counterbalance with the opposite hand, then pull the counterbalancing hand back and twist the core to push the KB overhead.

The dynamics are similar to many IMA moves where the non-dominant hand is really driving the action instead of the obvious hand/limb.

Check it out:

Hi Dave et al,

Now that's a real little gem- and just when you said you were reluctant to prescribe or recommend exercsies for IMA...what a great find...yes, I feel it does indeed 'mimic' or mirror or demand similar/same actions to IMA moves...and, Sonnon is a bloody good teacher isn't he?

Thanks again and if you have any more...-John

LOL. Well, I don't think of it as being an IMA-assist lift. I use it to get clients to engage the core more, it adds a twisting component that is good for health and athleticism, and it's a stepping stone to the military press, which is more isolation work.

But yes, Sonnon's stuff is a great bridge from IMA to KB work as is Steve's. Lots of good material.

Tongue-
Tongue shold be relaxed and touching(not pressing) roof of the mouth everytime.It's really helps with concetration-by keeping down unnecesary chatter in the gym.Too.
And two major Qi vessels are kept from stagnation by this.Even for some unaware and strange with Qi concept,it will keep them away from drop-accidents and injuries.
Tested on myself.
This phenomenon been called Guardian Qi ,somewhere..
It's also big help to control breathing-try breathing ladder with it.
Sometimes its tricky to open-mouth hard breathe with tongue "glued" there.
"Keep practice" ..as Someone said.

Seems to me no one never been hurt,i the process, in the tongue by his own teeth.
Very well.

Here's little something:various fist holds,arms and forearms too.
Free arms here looks somehow wushu-esque.

WOW! super sweet padlock work! We have some padlocks at our dojo, but never thought to work them like this. Mostly do GS/Kettlebell type stuff with them. Never thought about juggling them. Got to get to working them now!